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Tony D
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AND THAT'S ENOUGH - THAT'S ENOUGHAWESOME - ENOUGH FOR SEVERAL LIFE TIMES

THIS NEXT POINT IS A DISTRACTION THAT DETRACTS FROM THE BENEFITS AVAILABLE FROM FOCUSED STUDY OF THE ABOVE...

Now, many won't like this, but what I believe is overwhelmingly BS is the notion that there are myraid deeper "applications" hidden in kata - where seemingly simple techniques like punches or low blocks are either "actually" or "alternatively" elbow breaks or throws etc.

  • now, many won't like this, but what I believe is overwhelmingly BS is the notion that there are myraid deeper "applications" hidden in kata - where seemingly simple techniques like punches or low blocks are either "actually" or "alternatively" elbow breaks or throws etc.

  • often these alternatives can be demonstrated with some success - enough to impress juniors who are used to the day to day block and strike techniques but have no real expertise in breaks or throws - but as someone with several years of hapkido as well, I can say that with confidence that most of these alternatives proposed for karate and taekwondo kata are poorly conceived, and any "master" at the supposed application would not have used any movement that could be misinterpreted as the outward technique for which the application is the hidden secret: learning the "secret" applications this way would be setting the practitioners up to be very mediocre at those breaks or throws, or leave themselves unacceptably vulnerable during their execution or follow up given a defender versed in such techniques

  • very often, some mediocre martial arts "master" who doesn't have the aptitude or patience to achieve an exemplary standard, or obsesses on whatever fame / followers / fortune motivates them, finds it easier to dream up or buy into some elaborate stories about hidden meanings in kata, then they've got a whole plethora of extra "secret knowledge" to impress with; the same thing happens with "masters" suddenly teaching senior students meditation or chi gung or reiki or some other peripheral activity that they're probably not even "black belt" level at, but given the students are likely complete beginners it's another distraction and claim to expertise supporting their authority

  • I fully accept a few movements in katas may have been misinterpreted and simplified to some more common technique they outwardly resemble, so corrections along the lines of "that's actually xyz" will occasionally happen over the years as faults in the transmission of kata are corrected (or begun/propagated), but that's another matter: once the purpose is clarified the technique should be being done in a way intended to be optimal for that application, rather than with any intent to remain outwardly similar to the earlier mistaken technique

    • the purpose of some techniques isn't obvious to an unfamiliar observer - again, I'm not saying it should be, I'm just saying when the kata movement is a "punch" it's a punch and only a punch, if it's a "pressing block with fist" or something then it may look pretty similar, but it will be the same application every time the kata is practiced and you as practitioner should be focused on mastering that specific application
  • As sanity checks:

    • If you're being told some movement is to throw an opponent standing in such-and-such a position, imagine a jujitsu master moving in to affect the same throw - would it conceivably look anything like what you're being told to do?

    • Would it work on someone who wasn't from your own style? For example - I visited a high-ranking karate master here in Tokyo who had taught his students flawed stances - a "forward" stance where the front knee extended past the toes - and flawed habits - like remaining tense after completion of a punch - then felt clever wandering around grabbing their front arm and pulling them forwards off balance... it only worked on his own students!

AND THAT'S ENOUGH - THIS NEXT POINT IS A DISTRACTION THAT DETRACTS FROM THE BENEFITS AVAILABLE FROM FOCUSED STUDY OF THE ABOVE...

  • now, many won't like this, but what I believe is overwhelmingly BS is the notion that there are myraid deeper "applications" hidden in kata - where seemingly simple techniques like punches or low blocks are either "actually" or "alternatively" elbow breaks or throws etc.

  • often these alternatives can be demonstrated with some success - enough to impress juniors who are used to the day to day block and strike techniques but have no real expertise in breaks or throws - but as someone with several years of hapkido as well, I can say that with confidence that most of these alternatives proposed for karate and taekwondo kata are poorly conceived, and any "master" at the supposed application would not have used any movement that could be misinterpreted as the outward technique for which the application is the hidden secret: learning the "secret" applications this way would be setting the practitioners up to be very mediocre at those breaks or throws, or leave themselves unacceptably vulnerable during their execution or follow up given a defender versed in such techniques

  • very often, some mediocre martial arts "master" who doesn't have the aptitude or patience to achieve an exemplary standard, or obsesses on whatever fame / followers / fortune motivates them, finds it easier to dream up or buy into some elaborate stories about hidden meanings in kata, then they've got a whole plethora of extra "secret knowledge" to impress with; the same thing happens with "masters" suddenly teaching senior students meditation or chi gung or reiki or some other peripheral activity that they're probably not even "black belt" level at, but given the students are likely complete beginners it's another distraction and claim to expertise supporting their authority

  • I accept a few movements in katas may have been misinterpreted and simplified to some more common technique they outwardly resemble, so corrections along the lines of "that's actually xyz" will occasionally happen over the years as faults in the transmission of kata are corrected (or begun/propagated), but that's another matter

AND THAT'S ENOUGH - THAT'S AWESOME - ENOUGH FOR SEVERAL LIFE TIMES

THIS NEXT POINT IS A DISTRACTION THAT DETRACTS FROM THE BENEFITS AVAILABLE FROM FOCUSED STUDY OF THE ABOVE...

Now, many won't like this, but what I believe is overwhelmingly BS is the notion that there are myraid deeper "applications" hidden in kata - where seemingly simple techniques like punches or low blocks are either "actually" or "alternatively" elbow breaks or throws etc.

  • often these alternatives can be demonstrated with some success - enough to impress juniors who are used to the day to day block and strike techniques but have no real expertise in breaks or throws - but as someone with several years of hapkido as well, I can say with confidence that most of these alternatives proposed for karate and taekwondo kata are poorly conceived, and any "master" at the supposed application would not have used any movement that could be misinterpreted as the outward technique for which the application is the hidden secret: learning the "secret" applications this way would be setting the practitioners up to be very mediocre at those breaks or throws, or leave themselves unacceptably vulnerable during their execution or follow up given a defender versed in such techniques

  • very often, some mediocre martial arts "master" who doesn't have the aptitude or patience to achieve an exemplary standard, or obsesses on whatever fame / followers / fortune motivates them, finds it easier to dream up or buy into some elaborate stories about hidden meanings in kata, then they've got a whole plethora of extra "secret knowledge" to impress with; the same thing happens with "masters" suddenly teaching senior students meditation or chi gung or reiki or some other peripheral activity that they're probably not even "black belt" level at, but given the students are likely complete beginners it's another distraction and claim to expertise supporting their authority

  • I fully accept a few movements in katas may have been misinterpreted and simplified to some more common technique they outwardly resemble, so corrections along the lines of "that's actually xyz" will occasionally happen over the years as faults in the transmission of kata are corrected (or begun/propagated), but that's another matter: once the purpose is clarified the technique should be being done in a way intended to be optimal for that application, rather than with any intent to remain outwardly similar to the earlier mistaken technique

    • the purpose of some techniques isn't obvious to an unfamiliar observer - again, I'm not saying it should be, I'm just saying when the kata movement is a "punch" it's a punch and only a punch, if it's a "pressing block with fist" or something then it may look pretty similar, but it will be the same application every time the kata is practiced and you as practitioner should be focused on mastering that specific application
  • As sanity checks:

    • If you're being told some movement is to throw an opponent standing in such-and-such a position, imagine a jujitsu master moving in to affect the same throw - would it conceivably look anything like what you're being told to do?

    • Would it work on someone who wasn't from your own style? For example - I visited a high-ranking karate master here in Tokyo who had taught his students flawed stances - a "forward" stance where the front knee extended past the toes - and flawed habits - like remaining tense after completion of a punch - then felt clever wandering around grabbing their front arm and pulling them forwards off balance... it only worked on his own students!

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Tony D
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  • kata practice often involves sequences of movements and stances that we'd be unlikely to practice and drill repetitively otherwise - being "forced" to proficiency in these movements is a large part of what gives a martial art a consistent technical foundation spanning generations - and divided groups - of practitioners, motivating the practitioners to work not only on their strength but their weaknesses as well, even if they (or their instructor for that matter) doubt the importance or benefits

    • kata tend to encourage a range of movements that develop skills with both left and right sides of the body, and have a mix of techniques ensuring reasonably balanced muscular development: doing only bag or partner work can easily become over-focused on too few techniques
  • kata practice involves more footwork and changes in direction that hitting a static target like a makiwara or punching bag, but doesn't require the constant small adjustments and compromises involved when working with a training partner - which can make it hard to really "groove" the movement; three cheers for all that Bruce Lee stuff about having no form and adapting to the moment, but all that works best if you've learned the form deeply first then transcend it

  • while practicing a single movement gives a good opportunity to really focus on and perfect it, there's a danger of not practicing moving into that movement from a variety of stances or prior movements, nor learning to recover quickly for a mix of subsequent footwork and/or technique - kata combine a deep focus on individual movements with focus on the transitions

  • this is really the key benefit of kata: the challenge of perfecting the speed, power mechanics, balance, recovery etc. for each movement given a variety of prior and subsequent positions - in a totally controlled and reproducible situation (i.e. sans partner) - observing their range, considering the vulnerabilities during their execution etc..

  • kata obviously have the benefit of being able to be practiced alone

  • kata practice often involves sequences of movements and stances that we'd be unlikely to practice and drill repetitively otherwise - being "forced" to proficiency in these movements is a large part of what gives a martial art a consistent technical foundation spanning generations - and divided groups - of practitioners, motivating the practitioners to work not only on their strength but their weaknesses as well, even if they (or their instructor for that matter) doubt the importance or benefits

    • kata tend to encourage a range of movements that develop skills with both left and right sides of the body, and have a mix of techniques ensuring reasonably balanced muscular development: doing only bag or partner work can easily become over-focused on too few techniques
  • kata practice involves more footwork and changes in direction that hitting a static target like a makiwara or punching bag, but doesn't require the constant small adjustments and compromises involved when working with a training partner - which can make it hard to really "groove" the movement; three cheers for all that Bruce Lee stuff about having no form and adapting to the moment, but all that works best if you've learned the form deeply first then transcend it

  • while practicing a single movement gives a good opportunity to really focus on and perfect it, there's a danger of not practicing moving into that movement from a variety of stances or prior movements, nor learning to recover quickly for a mix of subsequent footwork and/or technique - kata combine a deep focus on individual movements with focus on the transitions

  • kata obviously have the benefit of being able to be practiced alone

  • kata practice often involves sequences of movements and stances that we'd be unlikely to practice and drill repetitively otherwise - being "forced" to proficiency in these movements is a large part of what gives a martial art a consistent technical foundation spanning generations - and divided groups - of practitioners, motivating the practitioners to work not only on their strength but their weaknesses as well, even if they (or their instructor for that matter) doubt the importance or benefits

    • kata tend to encourage a range of movements that develop skills with both left and right sides of the body, and have a mix of techniques ensuring reasonably balanced muscular development: doing only bag or partner work can easily become over-focused on too few techniques
  • kata practice involves more footwork and changes in direction that hitting a static target like a makiwara or punching bag, but doesn't require the constant small adjustments and compromises involved when working with a training partner - which can make it hard to really "groove" the movement; three cheers for all that Bruce Lee stuff about having no form and adapting to the moment, but all that works best if you've learned the form deeply first then transcend it

  • while practicing a single movement gives a good opportunity to really focus on and perfect it, there's a danger of not practicing moving into that movement from a variety of stances or prior movements, nor learning to recover quickly for a mix of subsequent footwork and/or technique - kata combine a deep focus on individual movements with focus on the transitions

  • this is really the key benefit of kata: the challenge of perfecting the speed, power mechanics, balance, recovery etc. for each movement given a variety of prior and subsequent positions - in a totally controlled and reproducible situation (i.e. sans partner) - observing their range, considering the vulnerabilities during their execution etc..

  • kata obviously have the benefit of being able to be practiced alone

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Tony D
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  • 12
  • 10

This is definitely a controversial topic. My thoughts:

  • kata practice often involves sequences of movements and stances that we'd be unlikely to practice and drill repetitively otherwise - being "forced" to proficiency in these movements is a large part of what gives a martial art a consistent technical foundation spanning generations - and divided groups - of practitioners, motivating the practitioners to work not only on their strength but their weaknesses as well, even if they (or their instructor for that matter) doubt the importance or benefits

    • kata tend to encourage a range of movements that develop skills with both left and right sides of the body, and have a mix of techniques ensuring reasonably balanced muscular development: doing only bag or partner work can easily become over-focused on too few techniques
  • kata practice involves more footwork and changes in direction that hitting a static target like a makiwara or punching bag, but doesn't require the constant small adjustments and compromises involved when working with a training partner - which can make it hard to really "groove" the movementmovement; three cheers for all that Bruce Lee stuff about having no form and adapting to the moment, but all that works best if you've learned the form deeply first then transcend it

  • while practicing a single movement gives a good opportunity to really focus on and perfect it, there's a danger of not practicing moving into that movement from a variety of stances or prior movements, nor learning to recover quickly for somea mix of subsequent footwork and/or technique - kata combine a deep focus on individual movements with focus on the transitions

  • kata obviously have the benefit of being able to be practiced alone

AND THAT'S ENOUGH - THIS NEXT POINT IS A DISTRACTION THAT DETRACTS FROM THE BENEFITS AVAILABLE FROM FOCUSED STUDY OF THE ABOVE...

  • now, many won't like this, but what I believe is overwhelmingly BS is the notion that there are myraid deeper "applications" hidden in kata - where seemingly simple techniques like punches or low blocks are either "actually" or "alternatively" elbow breaks or throws etc.

  • often these alternatives can be demonstrated with some success - enough to impress juniors who are used to the day to day block and strike techniques but have no real expertise in breaks or throws - but as someone with several years of hapkido as well, I can say that with confidence that most of these alternatives proposed for karate and taekwondo kata are poorly conceived, and any "master" at the supposed application would not have used any movement that could be misinterpreted as the outward technique for which the application is the hidden secret: learning the "secret" applications this way would be setting the practitioners up to be very mediocre at those breaks or throws, or leave themselves unacceptably vulnerable during their execution or follow up given a defender versed in such techniques

  • very often, some mediocre martial arts "master" who doesn't have the aptitude or patience to achieve an exemplary standard, or obsesses on whatever fame / followers / fortune motivates them, finds it easier to dream up or buy into some elaborate stories about hidden meanings in kata, then they've got a whole plethora of extra "secret knowledge" to impress with; the same thing happens with "masters" suddenly teaching senior students meditation or chi gung or reiki or some other peripheral activity that they're probably not even "black belt" level at, but given the students are likely complete beginners it's another distraction and claim to expertise supporting their authority

  • I accept a few movements in katas may have been misinterpreted and simplified to some more common technique they outwardly resemble, so corrections along the lines of "that's actually xyz" will occasionally happen over the years as faults in the transmission of kata are corrected (or begun/propagated), but that's another matter

This is definitely a controversial topic. My thoughts:

  • kata practice often involves sequences of movements and stances that we'd be unlikely to practice and drill repetitively otherwise - being "forced" to proficiency in these movements is a large part of what gives a martial art a consistent technical foundation spanning generations - and divided groups - of practitioners, motivating the practitioners to work not only on their strength but their weaknesses as well, even if they (or their instructor for that matter) doubt the importance or benefits

    • kata tend to encourage a range of movements that develop skills with both left and right sides of the body, and have a mix of techniques ensuring reasonably balanced muscular development: doing only bag or partner work can easily become over-focused on too few techniques
  • kata practice involves more footwork and changes in direction that hitting a static target like a makiwara or punching bag, but doesn't require the constant small adjustments and compromises involved when working with a training partner - which can make it hard to really "groove" the movement

  • while practicing a single movement gives a good opportunity to really focus on and perfect it, there's a danger of practicing moving into that movement from a variety of stances or prior movements, nor learning to recover quickly for some subsequent footwork and/or technique - kata combine a deep focus on individual movements with focus on the transitions

  • kata obviously have the benefit of being able to be practiced alone

AND THAT'S ENOUGH - THIS NEXT POINT IS A DISTRACTION THAT DETRACTS FROM THE BENEFITS AVAILABLE FROM FOCUSED STUDY OF THE ABOVE...

  • now, many won't like this, but what I believe is overwhelmingly BS is the notion that there are myraid deeper "applications" hidden in kata - where seemingly simple techniques like punches or low blocks are either "actually" or "alternatively" elbow breaks or throws etc.

  • often these alternatives can be demonstrated with some success - enough to impress juniors who are used to the day to day block and strike techniques but have no real expertise in breaks or throws - but as someone with several years of hapkido as well, I can say that with confidence that most of these alternatives proposed for karate and taekwondo kata are poorly conceived, and any "master" at the supposed application would not have used any movement that could be misinterpreted as the outward technique for which the application is the hidden secret: learning the "secret" applications this way would be setting the practitioners up to be very mediocre at those breaks or throws, or leave themselves unacceptably vulnerable during their execution or follow up given a defender versed in such techniques

  • very often, some mediocre martial arts "master" who doesn't have the aptitude or patience to achieve an exemplary standard, or obsesses on whatever fame / followers / fortune motivates them, finds it easier to dream up or buy into some elaborate stories about hidden meanings in kata, then they've got a whole plethora of extra "secret knowledge" to impress with; the same thing happens with "masters" suddenly teaching senior students meditation or chi gung or reiki or some other peripheral activity that they're probably not even "black belt" level at, but given the students are likely complete beginners it's another distraction and claim to expertise supporting their authority

  • I accept a few movements in katas may have been misinterpreted and simplified to some more common technique they outwardly resemble, so corrections along the lines of "that's actually xyz" will occasionally happen over the years as faults in the transmission of kata are corrected (or begun/propagated), but that's another matter

This is definitely a controversial topic. My thoughts:

  • kata practice often involves sequences of movements and stances that we'd be unlikely to practice and drill repetitively otherwise - being "forced" to proficiency in these movements is a large part of what gives a martial art a consistent technical foundation spanning generations - and divided groups - of practitioners, motivating the practitioners to work not only on their strength but their weaknesses as well, even if they (or their instructor for that matter) doubt the importance or benefits

    • kata tend to encourage a range of movements that develop skills with both left and right sides of the body, and have a mix of techniques ensuring reasonably balanced muscular development: doing only bag or partner work can easily become over-focused on too few techniques
  • kata practice involves more footwork and changes in direction that hitting a static target like a makiwara or punching bag, but doesn't require the constant small adjustments and compromises involved when working with a training partner - which can make it hard to really "groove" the movement; three cheers for all that Bruce Lee stuff about having no form and adapting to the moment, but all that works best if you've learned the form deeply first then transcend it

  • while practicing a single movement gives a good opportunity to really focus on and perfect it, there's a danger of not practicing moving into that movement from a variety of stances or prior movements, nor learning to recover quickly for a mix of subsequent footwork and/or technique - kata combine a deep focus on individual movements with focus on the transitions

  • kata obviously have the benefit of being able to be practiced alone

AND THAT'S ENOUGH - THIS NEXT POINT IS A DISTRACTION THAT DETRACTS FROM THE BENEFITS AVAILABLE FROM FOCUSED STUDY OF THE ABOVE...

  • now, many won't like this, but what I believe is overwhelmingly BS is the notion that there are myraid deeper "applications" hidden in kata - where seemingly simple techniques like punches or low blocks are either "actually" or "alternatively" elbow breaks or throws etc.

  • often these alternatives can be demonstrated with some success - enough to impress juniors who are used to the day to day block and strike techniques but have no real expertise in breaks or throws - but as someone with several years of hapkido as well, I can say that with confidence that most of these alternatives proposed for karate and taekwondo kata are poorly conceived, and any "master" at the supposed application would not have used any movement that could be misinterpreted as the outward technique for which the application is the hidden secret: learning the "secret" applications this way would be setting the practitioners up to be very mediocre at those breaks or throws, or leave themselves unacceptably vulnerable during their execution or follow up given a defender versed in such techniques

  • very often, some mediocre martial arts "master" who doesn't have the aptitude or patience to achieve an exemplary standard, or obsesses on whatever fame / followers / fortune motivates them, finds it easier to dream up or buy into some elaborate stories about hidden meanings in kata, then they've got a whole plethora of extra "secret knowledge" to impress with; the same thing happens with "masters" suddenly teaching senior students meditation or chi gung or reiki or some other peripheral activity that they're probably not even "black belt" level at, but given the students are likely complete beginners it's another distraction and claim to expertise supporting their authority

  • I accept a few movements in katas may have been misinterpreted and simplified to some more common technique they outwardly resemble, so corrections along the lines of "that's actually xyz" will occasionally happen over the years as faults in the transmission of kata are corrected (or begun/propagated), but that's another matter

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Tony D
  • 4.2k
  • 12
  • 10
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