Timeline for How does a non-grappler train to be ready to avoid grappling in a real-world situation?
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17 events
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| Jan 15, 2014 at 17:15 | comment | added | Dave Liepmann | @bcmoney I see the confusion. Regardless of the billing, it wasn't seriously considered to be "best of the best". Royce wasn't a BJJ champion--that was more Rickson and Royler. Regardless, we've strayed from the point: it's patently absurd to claim that pure striking is a reliable defense against grappling. | |
| Jan 15, 2014 at 14:54 | comment | added | bcmoney | @DaveLiepmann Tyson has been humbled of late, but if the big boxing money he was used to earning went into a Royce Gracie .vs. Mike Tyson fight @ UFC 1, its only speculation, but I still doubt Royce's chances. Tyson was incredibly motivated and confident back then and possibly the only ego that could have overcome a Gracie in their heyday. The only reason I would call it 60-40 Tyson-Gracie rather than 80-20 is because of the lack of even 4oz. gloves. If Tyson didn't learn how to punch without breaking his hand, all it would have taken would be one errant punch to take away his main weapons. | |
| Jan 15, 2014 at 14:46 | comment | added | bcmoney | @Graham I'm not pretending BJJ didn't have a massive influence on the sport (nor am I ignoring the influence and importance that it does continue to hold). For the record I train it myself and have attended a seminar where I got to roll with Royce. He obliterated me. I'm just pointing out the obvious that the first UFCs were billed as best-against-best when it was clearly not the case. Despite regional championships Gordeau was a top 100 at best in the overall Kickboxing world (mostly open weight rankings back then), while Royce was clearly top 10 in the world in grappling skill/knowledge. | |
| Jan 15, 2014 at 12:36 | comment | added | Dave Liepmann | @bcmoney When asked about a hypothetical fight against Royce, Mike Tyson replied, "It doesn’t matter. If I hit him with a good punch, OK, but if he gets hold of me and in a position I’m not familiar with, I’m not going to win the fight. I would have to be equipped with grappling skills as well. Gracie changed the whole game around. To be involved in this kind of fight, you have to know that style right off the bat." | |
| Jan 8, 2014 at 18:59 | comment | added | GHP | As far as Tyson goes, there's no reason to believe that 1993 Tyson, with ZERO grappling training, would fare any better than 2010 James Toney, who had great training partners and months of takedown defense training, and yet was effortlessly taken down and subbed by an over-the-hill Couture. | |
| Jan 8, 2014 at 18:57 | comment | added | GHP | "The Gracies never fought any other top Kickboxer..." What about Gordeau? He was the "1991 World Champion Savate and holder of the Dutch Champion Kyokushin Karate title" and Royce beat him pretty handily in '93. Rickson in particular smashed everyone put in front of him. Its very strange that 20 years later, everyone is pretending that BJJ didn't absolutely destroy the illusion of stand-up-only fighting supremacy. | |
| Jul 25, 2013 at 23:21 | comment | added | bcmoney | Since we're talking 80s/90s during the early days of MMA and UFC in particular, how about: Mike Tyson (world Boxing champ at the time) Benny Urquidez (world champion Kickboxer) Andy Hug (world champion of Kyokushin Karate later K-1) Bas Rutten (King of Pancrase before he'd reached anywhere near Gracie-level grappling) Namsaknoi Yudthagarngamtorn (Muay Thai champion in the 90s) The Gracies never fought any other top Kickboxer or Muay Thai stylist for that matter | |
| Jul 25, 2013 at 20:08 | comment | added | Dave Liepmann | @bcmoney What non-grappling strikers would you refer to instead? | |
| Jul 25, 2013 at 16:17 | comment | added | bcmoney | @DaveLiepmann You can hardly refer to the competitors in the first 5 UFCs as being the best representatives for strikers. The Gracies however, were at the top of the grappling world and the majority of even other grapplers did not know about submissions because Catch Wrestling was sidelined for the less violent Greco-Roman and Free styles, Kung Fu became cinematic/gymnastic Wushu after the Cultural Revolution and Japanese Jiu-Jitsu became the more sportive and practitioner-preserving Judo "gentle way" while Aiki-jutsu became the softer and more philosophical Aikido after the war. | |
| Jul 18, 2012 at 13:16 | history | edited | Shauna | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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| Jul 18, 2012 at 13:01 | history | edited | Shauna | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 1104 characters in body
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| Jul 17, 2012 at 21:26 | comment | added | Dave Liepmann | @DavidH.Clements They're as close to evidence as we get in most training, and despite their shortcomings as evidence, I think it silly to try to deny the problem that they expose in a striking-only training program. | |
| Jul 17, 2012 at 21:14 | comment | added | David H. Clements | If you think that "boxing/kickboxing/TKD/kyokushin challenge matches" are representative of "combat" or "fighting" then there's already a problem. | |
| Jul 17, 2012 at 21:04 | comment | added | Dave Liepmann | Wow. Did no one here watch the first five UFCs? This is a great answer. "Almost always" is pretty accurate. The enormous wealth of boxing/kickboxing/TKD/kyokushin challenge matches against BJJ have solved that one pretty thoroughly. | |
| Jul 17, 2012 at 20:52 | comment | added | user15 | @WayneInML The question is just presuming straight grappling to grappling. | |
| Jul 17, 2012 at 20:30 | comment | added | Wayne In Yak | I disagree with a grappler will almost always win against a striker. Depends on how several factors as to who will win. For example a well placed knee does wonders to prevent someone shooting in for a take down. | |
| Jul 17, 2012 at 20:22 | history | answered | Shauna | CC BY-SA 3.0 |