There is vertical fist punch in Hapkido as well as some Chinese martial arts and in older styles of boxing, but I see it a lot less in modern fighting and sparring.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a vertical fist (where the wrist never parallels the ground) versus a straight punch (which turns over)? Where would one choose to use one over the other in an actual fight?
I have done some Wing Chun; I do love the vertical punch - it's very fast, powerful and precise
The vertical punch is the most basic and fundamental in Wing Chun and is usually thrown with the elbow down and in front of the body.
Wing Chun favors the vertical punch for several reasons:
When executing the punch, you must relax and not use your shoulders. If your shoulders gets tired from using the punch, you did something wrong. The punch comes from the body and not the arm.
The punches may be thrown in quick succession in a "straight blast" or "chain punching". When executed correctly, it can be used as a disorienting finisher.
Isshinryu karate emphasizes the use of the vertical fist punch; it is a trademark of the style. Here is my perspective as an ex-Isshinryu practitioner who now (occasionally) trains boxing and muay Thai for striking.
The spiel I gave when I taught Isshinryu was as follows: the vertical fist is part of a rising punch that:
I have also heard other Isshinryu practitioners claim that such a hand position more efficiently transmits force to the fist.
If one is training to get proficient in hitting people, the overriding concern one should have is achieving fluency in what Matt Thornton calls the "delivery system" of striking. Or as Daisetsu Suzuki put it:
Technical knowledge is not enough. One must transcend techniques so that the art becomes an artless art, growing out of the unconscious.
This means that we should evaluate training systems not by which one has a better checklist of reasons why they use a certain fist alignment (a comparison in which Isshinryu might win), but rather which one more consistently produces proficient strikers (a comparison in which boxing and kickboxing would win).
When choosing a style, it is dramatically more important to hit pads, work with the heavy bag, and spar with hard contact in a permissive ruleset than to worry about vertical versus horizontal fists. Avoid premature optimization--vertical versus non-vertical punches should be one of the last things to worry about in one's training. If a student was executing horizontally-oriented body punches, I wouldn't say that switching to a vertical fist was at all a priority.
That said, boxing does align the knuckles vertically during some punches--a lead hook comes to mind--but there is much less emphasis on this being a different kind of fist or a different style of punch.
I don't mind the straight vertical-fist punch for strikes to the body, but I don't see its usefulness for striking the head, and I don't think it's really that different from turning the fist over.
I'm no longer convinced by the idea that the vertical fist makes much of a difference for wrist stability; I would argue that if that is a concern for a trainee, that person should get stronger and hit the heavy bag very carefully and more frequently. I'm also not convinced that "fitting into the V of the sternum" matters very much. The xiphoid process might be somewhat easier to hit, but knocking the wind out of people seems more reliant on footwork, tactics, accuracy, and speed than on how the fist is positioned.
I flat out don't believe that the vertical fist is faster than other punches, or that one can't hit with the correct top two knuckles using non-vertical punches, or that it transmits force more efficiently than non-vertical fist positions. I just don't see any credible evidence for these claims, though I mention them because I've heard them.
Your mileage may vary, but generally, the choice of fist position has more to do with the ergonomics of the punch.
The distance and the height of the target and the angle of the punch seem to be the major aspects that contribute to the choice of the fist position.
When I punch above the chest height I usually prefer either open palm (I am a taijiquan practitioner) or horizontal fist position. Below the solar plexus I definitely prefer vertical fist position. Lower than dantien, usually means that the fist turns back horizontal.
Also the angle of the punch, the distance to the target and use of boxing gloves (or not) does influence it.
To me it has more to do with how the energy of my punch travels from the source of the punch through the structure of my body in to the target.
As an instructor of Krav maga and Israeli Combat Systems (ICS), I can tell you there are very specific reasons for not turning at the end of a punch (at least for Krav Maga and ICS).
Krav Maga and ICS are meant to teach people quickly and effectively defend themselves in a street fight. Unlike a tournament or cage fight, anytime you get into a street fight, your skills will deteriorate slightly from the way you trained them due to the stress of a real fight. Because of this, we teach people to punch with a vertical fist to insure that even under high stress situations, several things will occur.
You always hit with the top two knuckles:
You don't telegraph the punch:
Because Krav Maga and ICS are intended to be effective in real life scenarios, and not everyone has the ability to train in a more traditional martial art for decades, punches are taught with the fist positioned vertically, to minimize the risks of telegraphing and injuring the weaker knuckles under the high stresses and fatigue that will occur in a street fight. In terms of other martial arts, the ideas are still the same, the only difference may come in that many train for years to become effective, at which point they may be able to more easily control their fine motor skills. However, under any high stress situation, such as a street fight, it is generally a much safer option to keep your fist vertically
We usually call this Sun Fist Punch.
Basically it comes down to efficiency. While it is rare to find someone proficient at jabbing and vertical punching, but someone who is good at both will always have a faster vertical punch.
Why it is efficient? The fact that you are relaxed and only tense your arms muscles at short intervals means you can go a lot longer without noticing any fatigue.
Also with universal style punches, a lot of the force from the punch can go back into your shoulder, causing your back muscles to tire our, and out through the back of your shoulder. With a sun fist punch all the striking force and recoil is kept on your centerline and if you have a strong stance, this goes into your opponent. So unlike a jab, all of the energy you put into the punch will hit your opponent.
Also important is the flick of the wrist at the end of the punch 「which a lot of people do not know about」 the difference in a rams head punch 「the standard punching style」 and a sun fist punch is like the difference between a solid bullet and a hollow point.
With a rams head punch, you hit with the palm knuckles of your index finger and middle finger, this is sharp and the force shoots through your opponent. The sun fist punch hits with the palm and middle knuckles on your middle, ring and little fingers. This is more like a flat surface, transferring more force into the target.
The flick of the wrist i mentioned is where as you make contact with the punch, you bend your fist up so instead of pointing at 0 degrees, your fist points 10 or so degrees above horizontal. The purpose of this is to direct the shock diagonally, meaning the kinetic energy will travel through more flesh before dissipating into the air.
I personally prefer sun fist punch as wing chun is my main style, but you can never get nearly as much power as you would in a full range hook, cross or any other heavy punch that is chambered and then launched.
As for deciding which one to use, pick one and stick with it. Mixing a rams head punch with a sun fist is a horrible idea. Do not do it in a fight.
All the answers here come from karate guys and whatnot so here is a boxing/kickboxing answer:
It doesn't matter if you rotate your fist or not, as long as you keep your wrist and arm straight and hit the target with your index and middle knuckles. Look on youtube how Bas Rutten punches.
The advantage of vertical punches is sometimes they are straighter and don't encourage as much 'flick' motion but just a straight drive, which is what you want.
Vertical Punch Action
Vertical punch is typically used in arts that tend to use a guard that uses a lot of cross parries with the palms - escrima, wing chun, etc. The movement efficiency is that all you need to do is close your hand and punch straight as less action.
The more valuable aspect is about line of force with punches. The line of force for your arm is along your ulna - the bone in your forearm along the 'knife edge" of your hand. Punching with the ring and pinky finger knuckles, although smaller knuckles, simply lines up better with the direct force and a vertical punch does this well.
Corkscrew Punches
The corkscrew action is supposed to add some extra force to the punch as you now add the strength of the forearm muscles (which rotate the the ulnar and radius). It definitely works better for altering the striking surface on downward, or hooking punches.
Modern boxers use this, so it clearly has some value regardless of whether the corkscrew actually adds more force or simply alters the striking angle. Even with these I personally prefer to keep my striking surface to be the last two knuckles, rather than the two large ones, but that's me.
My simple view of it is use either type as feels best to you given the art and movements you use. The more complex part is if you use both, consider what your defensive movements are, what your usual lines of attack are, and which works best in a given case.
I study a style of silat where we use a lot of different angles of attack so we have a lot of different punch options, but usually you find yourself personally picking 3-4 that you default to all the time based on how you move and what's natural for you.
I'll consider that you're not talking about the upper cut but instead about the punch where the wrist turns. Practice the straight/piston punch and the outward spin/tornado punch and you'll realise the differences. First, some principles:
With a tornado punch, your entire arm spins outward and gains momentum, the knuckle always face the opponent and can be pushed in and finally there is no piston contrecoup.
With a straight punch your knuckles are never facing the opponent unless you hit the opposite side, or bend (and break) your wrist or raise your elbow (less force). It should be reserved for punching downward or to the sides.
I was taught vertical fist as the main chu'an (拳 "fist") in tai chi chu'an. It seems to come from the Yang style, although I have it through Fu, as Yang and Fu "traded ideas" (pushed hands with each other:)
Here's a video of a Yang stylist that shows the general combination, although the practitioner here is too tight and doesn't leave the open "intercept" hand extended, which would be controlling the opponents arm or shoulder so the punch can coil in. The deflect fist doesn't have to be that downward, and I find it more effective to keep it largely horizontal. (Fu style tends to be more extended and circular than Yang because Fu was mainly known for Bagua, but Yang Chengfu was the real deal.)
https://youtu.be/gp-Z5Iq_5a4?t=47
This is, in my experience, the best punch. Punching like hsing yi typically means your tai chi technique isn't yet good enough (which is partly why you learn hsing yi!), and even backfist chops in tai chi aren't close to the best strikes.
If used as a true tai chi punch, where there is no focus until after the fist contacts the torso, it's ideal because the combination leaves you inside in a rooted position, so you can use your waist to focus (put force directly into the opponent's body.) That's very difficult to do, but less difficult with this technique.
Ideal target is the kidney, and the with the possibility of rupturing it and ending combat.
(Most people probably cannot rupture organs with a tai chi punch—I've never had a chance to validate it in actual combat, only sparring, where the combination overall is incredibly effective, because the setup fully neutralizes the opponent.)
But this punch can be used as powerful push also, or a less powerful strike to severely disincentivize without trying to do serious damage. It is certainly not pleasant, even with very little focus, if you're focusing into the top two knuckles.
You also see this in Hsing-yi Beng Quan, which is the most linear hsing-yi strike, described as an "arrow" that has smashing power. From the wiki:
The strikes or blows are driven up in a diagonal from the muscles of the rear foot, through the muscles of the torso and out the striking arm. This all combines to give Beng Quan a simple and straightforward power which utilises the entire body's momentum and mass.
You also see it in Pao Quan (cannon fist), but there it is typically less powerful.
For me the ultimate advantage of horizontal fist for internal arts specifically is:
This works even if you only focus after contact with the body, and it does not take much power to damage the tissue when it's focused with the down-and-in via the first two knuckles.
Even where it's not a KO move, it is highly disincentivizing, which can be validated by doing to gently against a sparring partner, or have it done to you. The biggest "ouch" factor seems to come from compacting the soft tissue into the ribs.
Q: What are the advantages of using a vertical fist for punching?
There are a lot of insightful and informative answers here. Glancing through the responses, my initial thoughts are that most of these are focusing on "higher order effects" (in technical parlance), and may or may not be useful - of course, depending on your level of dedication. Ephraim's answer from a Krav Maga perspective is closest to my understanding, but I wanted to share Chris Price's answers from Quora with his decades of insight from a boxing and bare-knuckle fighting perspective.
The "advantages of a vertical fist", imply a disadvantage with a horizontal fist. To echo Ephraim's answer, a vertical fist minimizes the probability that you suffer a boxer's fracture. This assumes that the person you are punching is prone to move sideways more than vertically. Vertical movement downward of the target (as in them bobbing or ducking as a trained fighter might do) would also tend to increase the chances of a boxer's fracture. Another advantage of a vertical fist is its geometry. The narrower vertical profile means that, at least in theory, you have an increased probability of getting through arms in a vertical position (as in a defensive position). In practice, it is unclear to me that this has significant meaningful repercussions.
The horizontal position, as is implied from the previous paragraph, suffers from a higher probability of fracture of the smaller bones in the hand. Interestingly, according to Chris Price, the popularity of horizontal position came about after the introduction of boxing gloves as a way to increase damage to the opponents face - not by virtue of being horizontal, but by the twist from a vertical position. This caused the skin around the eyes to be torn or cut, causing bleeding and impairing the vision of the opponent.
I have serious doubts about the argument that the twist provides extra force to the punch. Certainly, you are imparting extra rotational energy, but the timing matters significantly, and that rotational energy doesn't really add to the direct force of the punch in the simple models of thinking about this. This seems like a folk tale told by teachers to students, who then go on repeating misinformation.
Good reads on Quota related to this question:
Another place where the twist is mentioned with respect to boxing
I have trained Isshinryu for a very long time here's some answers. Yes you punch with the top too knuckles. Why? It has more force. You wouldn't want a flat knife because then stabbing wouldn't work. Every force has an equal and opposite force. If you punch with your whole fist you are spreading out the force on both ends. With the top two knuckles you can concentrate that force. You DO NOT use your shoulder to follow the punch through. You use YOUR HIPS. You hips is what give you the "hook" boxers have. And you don't have to expose yourself. It is quicker and as any high school student would know W=1/2MV^2. Velocity of the punch is more important than your mass.
As the young Master BRUCE LEE often asked "Is it effective? Does it work?" "yes?" Well he didn't really care what it looked like. As to the point of "When executing the punch, you must relax and not use your shoulders." Bruce Lee liked to use the **"ball on the end of a chain" analogy for this type of punch when he said it would go "WANG" !!!! His student, Dan Inasanto showed a very effective way of developing, and testing the 'one inch punch'. Apparently Bruce Lee (I HAVE seen ALL of his training videos, interviews, and read all of his books) utilised a common weight lifting bar with a weight collar attached to one end, leaving enough room to hang on to it out in front of the body as in the ready position. He then placed a 2.5 - 5.00 Kg weight on the bar. First he would drop his wrist, which would emulate the shape of the vertical fist. The weight would give out an audible 'clack' His next action was to move his elbow forward, which would activate the delivery system. This would give off an audible 'clack' as well. However, if you heard 2 'clacks' you would need to apply the technique more correctly so that the wrist drop AND the elbow thrust produced only 1 'clack'...VERY IMPORTANT..becoming synchronised..in unison. The final step was engaging the shoulder!!!! You would also need to hear only 1 audible click....VITALLY IMPORTANT !!!! TRY IT - it is the most powerful punch training I have done, as it has enhanced every type of punch I have - and made them more powerful and effective from any range or direction. I have also witnessed many, many street fighters etc. break the knuckles and other bones of their fists. Explains why boxers effectively strap their hands B4 putting on the gloves - also why many martial artists use hand protection etc. It is mandatory requirement at KOSHIKI tournaments. I can tell you truly, you can still have soft hands AND a very effective punch, but if ALL YOU DO IS PUNCH, then you better wrap them up!!!! The 1 inch punch may well be delivered from the centre of the body, but simple physics will dictate that it will and must connect with the shoulder if you are to extend your arm to drive 'through' the opponent. We saw a magnificent example of this when GRAND MASTER ERNESTO PRESAS and SENSEI MICHAEL D'ARCY represented our art at an international multi discipline tournament in Germany a decade ago. A small WING CHUN man gave a demonstration of the classic 1 inch punch whereby he struck a huge German ARNIS man holding a 1 inch board. There was no sound as he went through the board like it wasn't there, struck the ARNIS man in the middle of the chest and drove him back 2 meters. The German martial artist's feet had left the ground !!!!. I did notice that the WING CHUN man fully engaged his shoulder when executing this strike. the punch only travelled 1 inch to strike the board, it then went straight through it and......the rest is, as they say, history. Peace Mad Merlin
"What are the advantages and disadvantages of using a vertical fist (where the wrist never parallels the ground) versus a straight punch (which turns over)? Where would one choose to use one over the other in an actual fight?" The vertical punch has been utilised simply because it creates a straight line from the fist, through the arm to the elbow.In other words it is a straight punch.The bottom 2 knuckles are in a direct line with the lower edge of the forearm. The most efficient use of a vertical punch is upon the centre line of an opponent, utilising the 'chain' punch. It can be used to strike many targets, but it is usually used as 'hardness' against 'softness'. A punch where the fist turns over is commonly referred to in karate as a 'reverse punch'.The 'hook' in boxing is a good example of such a punch. Have a look at the world title fight of many years ago with Jack Dempsey knocking his opponent out with a very short left hook that few people even saw! A left lead, followed by an overhand right cross to set up the opponent by means of 'tai subaki' (body shifting), and the swiftly executed arcing punch that turns over as it strikes downward over the 'mind point' of the opponents jaw. This beautiful technique enables very small people to knock out very big people. A vertical type punch can be used as a lead punch, typically targeting the nose. Gov V 26, the cheek bones, the eyes, and the throat or neck areas. The fist that rotates is used for striking to the Temple, the ears, floating ribs, side of the jaw and head, and also down into the lower abdomen and pubic joins, as well as the same targets as above and vice versa. The advantages and disadvantages of each are when you choose the right target that presents itself to you ( ala BURMESE BANDO) or you don't. One punch will work in one situation and one in another. It is relative to the way you fight, and who you are fighting. In response to the Isshinryu practitioners very assertive statements - Oh dear. Hips and shoulders knees and toes. All are connected. Of course the hips are used, as is every part of your body! If you persist in separating the parts you will become dis-jointed, and inevitably suffer injuries. Where do the Hips get activated from? We've done plenty of left and right hooks in boxing, and sundry martial arts fighting. If the force, that comes from your toes; then through your legs; then through your hips; then through your body; then through your shoulders; then through your arms and wrists, and then through your punch is not synergistically synchronised as a complete and harmonious unit, in a split second, then I'm sorry but there would appear to be something causing a glitch in your training. "You DO NOT use your shoulder to follow the punch through." Have you had to flog a very heavy bag for 60 seconds without putting your shoulders into it?. You would be told very quickly to 'get stuck in' or have an early shower. You can very distinctly hear a bag being hit hard and one that is simply being tapped by someone without shoulders. Oh! by the way I have seen one of our girls drop a 20 stone man with a massive punch driven by her hips AND her shoulders. When asked by Sensei where she felt the power come from she said "From my toes!!!! I just launched it and BAM!!!!" Of course she was named student of the year at our dojo in 1991. That's my beautiful wife Irene, she was 41 at the time. Peace Mad Merlin
